BERNHEism

BERNHEism  is an ideology. I'm not summarizing it here, so you'll actually have to read my page.

=Economics = BERNHEism supports a complicated economic model that fuses, and a large  Welfare State. It seeks to privatize most of the market with high regulations in order to keep a sense of competition around, maintain a decent standard of living for workers, and to prevent private interference in the government. However, BERNHEism also believes that a few industries should be deemed too important or too volatile to be entrusted to the whims of an autonomous market.

[[File:Regulationism.png]] Free Markets Do Not Exist
Title. Laissez-Faire economics are based on a contradiction. Think about it; if a government has to intervene in a market to protect consumers, the market is considered to be controlled, to an extent, but what if, in a "free" market, where there is no government intervention whatsoever, corporations become big enough to absolutely dominate entire sectors of the economy and perhaps even extend their control across some territory? Isn't the concept of "lobbying" also a form of regulation as well, since corporations are actively influencing the laws of the state? Could the people challenging these corporations be considered tyranny of the majority? And even if you were to prevent this through government regulation, haven't you just gone full circle and began to regulate the markets again? My point is that a truly "free" market cannot exist, since if the government won't regulate, corporations (or the people themselves) will begin to institute their own forms of regulation. Mind you, the concepts of some theories based on the concept of a free market (but not necessarily Laissez-Faire) like  are still very good economic models, but I believe that with some more regulation, we could go further. And with regulation being a defining trait of a market, why not?

[[File:Lib.png]] Regulationism Done Right
I believe in a system that employs regulation and (in its privatized section of the economy) and  in its public sector. However, regulation is still very much a double-edged sword, and I acknowledge this. Complete and utter regulation will make us no better than Command Economies, which are catastrophic in all aspects. In contrast, no regulation whatsoever wouldn't be as bad as a complete command economy, but it would still be quite bad regardless. There is a golden ratio.

[[File:Dirigisme.png]] How Much is Too Much?
I may be a fan of limited state capitalism to an extent, but this is contained within a select few industries out of necessity. Having too much regulation is worse than not having enough regulation.

[[File:Statecap.png]] Nationalized Core Industry
I believe in a core of industries, run entirely by the state in a state capitalist manner, that are deemed too important for a private market to handle.

[[File:Authcap.png]] Which Industry is "Core" Industry?
The Big Six:
 * [[File:Sun.png]] Power
 * For reasons that should be obvious. Private industry in this field has proven to be lackluster in terms of innovation and preparing for long-term scenarios. If we are at least going to weather the coming environmental storm with any hope, we need to begin researching and implementing EFFICIENT green power (nuclear, liquid thorium, fusion, etc.) ASAP. The time of natural gas and oil are over, although admittedly, it will take awhile to wean society off of them since it's interconnected with so many industries and communities already. Merely banning fossil fuels like I've seen some people unironically advocate for would result in a complete economic nightmare.
 * [[File:Scientocracy_Small.png]] Pharma (includes the manufacture of vapes and cigarettes).
 * OK, now this one is simply because y'all can't behave. I know this one, in particular, is beaten to death, but Insulin, damn it. There's no reason why Insulin costs should be this fucking high, especially when the manufacturing costs are so low (although not as low as people point them out to be, mind you), nor is there any reason whatsoever why the room & board costs for American hospitals (and even using the damn ambulance) makes people more scared of seeking healthcare than getting injured. However, the overall high cost of over-the-counter and prescription pharmaceuticals is the way it is for a reason. Manufacturing medicine is a very complex industry, and the testing phases for new medicines are very, very rigorous. Years of research could potentially be wasted on a new drug that may or may not work. Pharma companies have to account for all sorts of government regulations (even more so than your average industry). And if the drug doesn't work or has an averse side effect, the legal consequences for the company could be astronomical. And that's probably just scraping the surface. Conforming to all of this and avoiding all of these traps makes conceptualizing and producing most medicines a lot more expensive than people realize, and while some prices are indeed overblown for the sake of profit, medicine overall is costly for very good reasons.
 * [[File:Bankocracy.png]] Banking
 * The average person is financially illiterate when it comes to personal finance. The state must step in and nationalize all of the banks. This would allow the state to help its people make sound financial decisions, make it harder for them to fall into economic death traps (credit card debt, etc.), and grant the state even more control over the greater economy.
 * [[File:Merc.png]] Travel
 * As the recent Southwest Airlines logistical crisis proved, the entire travel industry, from Uber to Delta Airlines, needs to be implemented within the state. The state is the only entity capable of handling the logistics of travel, and thus, well, NATIONALIZE IT!
 * [[File:Krit.png]] Legal
 * The ability of richer people to afford better lawyers is absurd. Nobody should be able to weasel their way out of punishment just because they can afford better damage controls. Take the OJ Simpson case, for example. He spent a ton of money, more than many people will probably ever make in their entire lives, towards assembling one of the best teams of lawyers that the world has ever seen to combat the allegations that he killed his wife. The sad part is that he got off, despite monumental forensic evidence against him. Every person should enter the justice system equally represented by public defenders, and the state should make it so.
 * [[File:Ingsocf.png]] Information Technology
 * This one is more of a way to implement greater control over the content on things like computers and smartphones (essentially granting it control over the internet, with time), a way for the state to essentially take and install whatever it wants on your device, as well as a means of tracking people via GPS in case the person using it becomes wanted by the state.

[[File:Corp.png]] Megacorporations
State-owned businesses are not known for their efficiency, so I still want to privatize them as much as possible. However, I wish to run the state-owned industry that exists in a manner that allows for as much autonomy as possible on the methods of production and other aspects of a business. I wish to fill the highest echelons of power in state-owned industries with vetted officials (so we don't have complete retards running the show) and, above all, have the leadership report directly to government committees, replacing what would normally be a board of investors. The format these state-owned industries would take would be massive megacorporations grown from modern-day giants like BlackRock, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. These megacorporations would be like the ones found in China today, except mine would be allowed to have more autonomy than their Chinese counterparts.

[[File:Synd.png]] The Individual Worker
Being a capitalist, I am not afraid to admit that I do, in fact, value the greater economy over the rights of individual workers. However, despite this sentiment, I would still grant workers greater rights than what they have in the current American system, since I also believe that the success of the economy, until fully automated, is intrinsically linked to the happiness and prosperity of those who make it run. Therefore, I believe it's worth it to give workers a few benefits for the sake of their happiness, so they may be more productive at work, become more nationalist, and actively see the state as its friend, not an enemy (think of what happened with r/antiwork rising (and eventually getting CIA'd) due to material conditions of the modern American economy).

[[File:AnSynd.png]] The Question of Unions
Unions are probably the biggest obstacle to economic efficiency that exists in the current system, yet, due to the nature of modern American capitalism, they are actually somewhat needed. I hope to not only supplant unions with state alternatives, but to render unions obsolete as a whole. Supplanting unions is a good thing because, more often than not, the union often does not truly represent workers as a whole (and the ones that do tend to become collectives of utter kooks (think of the IWW)) and instead represents the interests of those who run them, and these people often have agendas that differ from what the union is supposed to be about. This is not only a direct threat to economic efficiency, but also to state control and, sometimes, the social tranquility of the nation. Thus, I believe in abolishing unions by making them completely unnecessary, although there will be a state mechanism in place in case of loophole exploitation or unfair treatment.

[[File:Marketsoc.png]] Why Co-Ops Fail
Cooperatives are not good in my opinion because they put the worker ahead of economic production. I believe in the exact opposite mentality, although I believe in treating workers well for pragmatic reasons, as aforementioned. Thus, Cooperatives tend to be notoriously inefficient and unstable compared to a basic, hierarchal workplace's inherently technocratic and efficient nature.

[[File:3way.png]] The ESOP: The Best Compromise
However, even though the current system is great for production, it can be better if the workers were given more leeway and were offered a chance at a good life through their labor. One of the measures I would like to implement is the mass implementation of Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs). In essence, these work by having a legal entity (in this case, the state) hold shares of stock on behalf of the employees of a business. It's entirely funded by the company and operates on many of the same rules as a 401k retirement plan. Then, by either receiving money from the company or taking a loan from a bank or 3rd party and using that money to purchase most or all of a company's shares from the owner. Instead of an independent party determining the price of these shares, the state would determine the price in this case. This not only gives the workers technical ownership of the company without any risk of cash overlay or compromising the hierarchal structure of a company, but it also, by extension, directly ties things like benefits, welfare, etc. to the success of the company, thus giving the incentive to work harder while guaranteeing decent amenities.

[[File:Indust.png]] Automation and UBI: Is it Possible?
= Civics= BERNHEism is a very authoritarian ideology which seeks to expand the size and reach of the state, while drastically reducing civil liberties for the sake of order, progress and making civilian life less complicated and less political overall.

[[File:TotUltranat.png]] The Necessity of the State
The state is needed to ensure order and peace between its citizens by providing a coherent rule of law that works for everyone within the nation. The presence of a strong state is also needed to coordinate and execute many of my goals in an efficient manner, such as mass surveillance, state control over the media, mass automation, mass eugenics, and, eventually Post-Humanism and Algocratic Cyberocracy.

[[File:Technocracy.png]] Who Is Fit To Rule?
I believe that the state should select the most qualified (not necessarily the "best", per-se) people to make or help make decisions regarding policy, economics and law. "Qualified" in this context means the best person for the job, not necessarily the person with the most credentials or years of experience within a field. BERNHEism recognizes that the world is a variable place, and the state must be prepared for anything if it is to survive in the long run. Thus, he supports term limits for all positions within his government, emergency replacements if the need arises, and federalism to be able to adapt to any situation that may end up facing us. BERNHEism is a very big fan of technocracy, with power being concentrated in small councils of the most capable people of their kind in the nation, with this power being dispersed within a highly bureaucratic, yet efficient system.

[[File:Totdem.png]] Very Controlled Democracy
BERNHEism is federalist, as he believes that policy can be executed better if done through local executive structures that possess limited autonomy so they may make decisions that are made for and apply only to the states they serve. However, the states will be given far fewer rights than they do in the modern American system, as they will not be able to override federal policy without first challenging it through a pre-determined system. The states themselves will make up a far smaller portion of the government (with the house abolished and the senate reduced to a minor law-making apparatus within the state. However, both the governor and senators of a state will still be elected through democratic means, but the state will select candidates for the people to choose from, instead of candidates running independently. This will ensure at least some form of competence and loyalty and will prevent to rise of any more John Fetterman-s.

[[File:Mediastocracy flair.png]] The Media
Independent news media is a mistake and yet another tool for retarded celebrities and shady businessmen to impose their will upon the state and the population. People could consider the media to be an "industry," but in my opinion, the media shouldn't even be monetized in the first place. The purpose of the media is to serve news. The state shall control all news media on a few channels, and all alternative sources of news (except for things like personal blogs) will be banned.

[[File:PolState.png]] Police Reform
The police SHOULD be the primary enforcers of the state, but there is a lot of work that needs to be done with the entire department. I believe in giving the police more power than they have right now, as well as upgrading their equipment and facilities substantially (although not militarizing them). Still, they should also be given far more stringent training, especially in weapons handling, handling tense situations, and use of lethal force. In essence, I want to make the police FAR more disciplined. Uvalde could have ended a lot sooner if we had more disciplined cops.

[[File:Blacknat.png]] Repairing Race Relations...
A large part of the catastrophic race relations in America, toxic idpol aside, is the fact that police tend to sometime be a little overzealous when dealing with everyone, to be honest. Still, non-whites tend to get the shaft the most, especially with things such as the school-to-prison pipeline in place. Disproportionate media coverage and crime rates aside, most of the incidents you see in the news should not have ended the way they did. If someone has a weapon in hand or is attempting to brandish one, the cop should have every right to drop them where they stand, but merely resisting arrest is nothing to kill someone over. Mind you, certain communities of people in every race tend to be particularly belligerent towards law enforcement, and it is this behavior that contributes to why some of these officers are so finnicky. None of this is even purely racial, either. This simply goes in general.

...While Crushing [[File:Antifa.png]] Antifa
Alright, it's gaming time. Antifa is a domestic terrorist conglomerate operating on American soil, and all of them need to be annihilated with maximum prejudice. Antifa is a direct threat to the integrity and sometimes even the very authority of the state, and everyone affiliated with their little social media cells or anyone daring to wear black bloc on the streets should be either arrested or, knowing these types, uh, silenced. These people don't want to be Americans by their own admittance, and therefore, we shouldn't even give them the courtesy.

[[File:Altr-fat.png]] Right-Wing Militias
See above, except there will probably be a lesser mortality rate in this group because they appear to actually be able to follow orders sometimes.

= Diplomacy=

[[File:GlobeMask.png]] Intervention
An idea I'm not a really big fan of overall, but I'm willing to do if it means furthering or protecting my nation. Despite being a literal ultranationalist who will happily bully the Eurosphere with our economic and military influence (hehe), actual economic or military intervention almost never ends well for the countries intervened in, with only short-term gains (or even loss) for us.

[[File:Banana Republicanism.png]] Outsourcing Labor
I'm not a fan of this idea at all, although I recognize by this point, it may be a necessity for the USA to remain a dominant power in the world. Nevertheless, if I have to do it at all, I will do this as little as possible. Ideally, mass automation will remove the human cost of outsourcing labor, and by that point, we'd be merely paying room and board (and taxes).

[[File:Necon.png]] National Security
Let me make this absolutely clear: I AM NOT A HAWK (the neocon ball is only there because it's a joke). However, I will intervene in other countries if our national security is threatened by foreign entities. However, if possible, I would attempt to opt for a peaceful or cooperative solution to our problems instead of simply Lockheed Martin-ing everywhere we go.

[[File:Commie.png]] Tolerating Commies?
Ideological difference is no excuse for belligerence, unless that ideology is actually, directly threatening America or one of our allies (think of the Khomeinist regime in Iran, or the debacle in North Korea, or even Russia sometimes). I'll leave commies and fascists alone if they leave us alone and know their place.

= Social Views= Literally Hitler

[[File:SJW.png]] Identity Politics
Discusting >:(

[[File:Homo.png]] The LGBT Question
I will admit that I am very skeptical of the LGBT+ community in particular. I don't mind these people existing, but I am not a fan of some of their more, uh, degenerate practices like pride marches and their weird infatuation with having drag queens read to children for no apparent reason. I'll give them their civil unions (as giving them full marriage rights may antagonize the churches needlessly, a civil union would be functionally the same thing without religious undertones), but I'll be watching that community in particular for any sus things.

[[File:White_Guilt.png]] Race [[File:Blm.png]]
The modern concept of race is an arbitrary construct. Melanin content and physical differences between the races are merely an adaptation to their environments, and the median IQ in places like Africa tend to be so low because there isn't access to decent education and other things (you will find similar rates in some parts of white Appalachia as well, which speaks volumes about the current state of America as a whole). My point is that all differences between the races can be explained with either basic biology and anatomy, or merely looking at environments. Needless to say, I believe most racial conflict in America is unnecessary. I also recognize that certain policies like the school-to-prison pipeline, unfair gerrymandering and overt police violence (although that last one is seriously overblown, it's still there) exist, and I will do my best to counter those as well. I will also work to improve low-income communities everywhere, from Appalachia to Harlem, regardless of race. Another thing I despise is modern white guilt, which sometimes insinuates, at its absolute worst, that all white people are responsible for what their ancestors did in the past, or what a select few are doing right now. We may have just a small amount of privilege (not as much as most libtard ideologues would like you to think), but we as individuals are not responsible for either colonialism or what shady politicians are pulling right now.

[[File:Fem.png]] Gender [[File:Male-icon.png]]
Uh, equal. Biological gender roles, although admittedly based in actual science, can be overridden by just how advanced human society is nowadays. Both 3rd/4th-wave feminism and the Manosphere are EQUALLY (ba-dum tss) retarded. That's all I have to say. However, I deviate slightly from this because I can't support abortion because it results from "casual" sex. Rape is one thing and QoL-lowering genetic defects are another, but willingly choosing to screw someone, fully knowing what it entails, and then deciding to clean up the mess like THAT is not right. Therefore, I am a fan of using birth control as an alternative.

[[File:Laicism.png]] Religion
The church should have no influence in the state and all religious institutions should be subject to tax like any other establishment. However, other than that, I'm fine with people worshipping whatever they want, so long as it doesn't have anti-state undertones.

= Technology= :D

[[File:Indust.png]] Mass Automation
I support an economic policy that seeks to attain full automation in as many fields of the economy as humanly possible. Robots are more precise, quicker, more consistent, easier to coordinate and, above all, don't come with the downsides of human laborers. Robots can't unionize, don't require petty things such as benefits, wages, time off, sick leave, raises, etc., and don't stop working, provided they're powered, fueled and in good working order. Most industry can be mass-automated right now, since we have the technology, and what we can't automate right now, we should work on so ASAP. This is the way to turn the American economy into a complete powerhouse, but there's a teeny tiny problem with that; where do you put the workers displaced by automation?

[[File:Post-Industrialism.png]] Dealing with the Fallout
Dealing with the millions of displaced workers that will be the result of this whole mess will be very hard, and it's actually one of the biggest deterrents for abolishing human labor, other than some moralistic "hUmAn-MaDe 🤓" BS. To fix this, I would offer workers a way to attend free, state-owned universities. These universities would be four-year endeavors that would either springboard into higher forms of trade (jobs that can't be or can only be partially automated [yet], such as construction, software engineering, high-level electrician work, etc.) or a field in science, the humanities, etc. Alternatively, they would be able to accept a position as a State Sub-Indentured Laborer," doing odd or unusual jobs whenever the state needs them, in exchange for being hooked onto a UBI program. This would allow us to test a UBI system in a real-world scenario, as well as fill in the niche for odd jobs that can't be done by robots yet. However, all of this would cost A LOT of money, so automation would either be a gradual process (preferred), or we would have to spend time stocking precious things like gold up (think of what we have in Fort Knox, plus a little extra) so we could accelerate automation a little faster in the future, but not too fast, where we inundate the global economy with gold (which would cause a crisis).

[[File:Eugen.png]] Perfecting Our Genes
I am a massive supporter of CRISPR-based eugenics as a means to improve the next few generations of Americans by removing genetic defects within the population and giving people what are more or less biological cheat codes by manipulating certain genes to make the population more intelligent, making them stronger, give them better senses, etc. None of my eugenics is inspired by race at all, although an interesting idea worth entertaining is racially optimizing the next generations of Americans for the American environment since race is linked to the environmental impact on the human body.

[[File:Posth.png]] Transcending Biology
Eventually, when the technology is sufficient enough, I wish to transcend mere biology for the superior forms of the machine. Since this milestone is likely a century or more away, I can't say for certain what will happen, but it's bound to be good.

[[File:Artifism2.png]] This Planet Is Ours
I have a unique view when it comes to the environment. In the short term, I can be considered a bright-green environmentalist who wants to use nuclear power, a tried, proven, and unfathomably based method, to supplant fossil fuels. Since the technology has already been highly developed, it will be easier to build nuclear power plants compared to wind farms and solar panel fields. I wouldn't say I like using solar power in particular because the technology is experimental and inefficient, while other methods are available (although solar is still very much worth researching). I'm also a proponent of hydropower, as long as the impact on local environments is marginal enough. I'm not going to refuse to build a dam that could provide critical power for a region for the sake of one subspecies of unimportant, non-impactful fish. I also want to start the mass culling of invasive/out-of-control species like wild boars, coyotes, and, unfortunately, feral cats and dogs (although I would like to re-home as many of the latter as possible). When we have the technology to, however, I embrace the Artifist view on environmentalism, which states that nature is imperfect and should be supplanted by human constructs. While I agree with it 100% in the long run, for good reasons, nature is the way it is. It also has an annoying tendency to be interconnected to itself, so the implementation of Artifist technologies will be highly regulated and VERY gradual.

=Post-BERNHEism=

[[File:Chadf.png]] The Post-Labor State
Hopefully, automation and machine rule will become so influential in all facets of the state that the concept of "blue" and "white"-collar labor (among with a few other collars) will become defunct since it would reach a point in which machines automate the gathering/synthesizing, processing and manufacturing of goods, as well as power generation, agriculture and other important fields. This state, however, will probably take around a century of work to realistically attain, so there's that. We were simply born too soon.

[[File:Antwork.png]] Post-Labor ≠ Anti-Work
Now, being in the post-labor state does not mean the cessation of work. People will still be involved somewhat in politics, research and the humanities, as well as high-end machine maintenance and more technological fields. There will still be plenty of stuff to do. I never said this was post-SCARCITY, which will take even longer to achieve, probably.

[[File:Noocracy.png]] What Will We Do?
Ideally, we'll drop the pursuit of manual and paper-based labor for the sake of becoming smarter. By this point, hopefully, CRISPR-based eugenics and body modification will lead to a drastic increase in IQ (although a better system will probably be formulated by that time) among the population, which would allow us to ascend past labor itself and instead begin to think about things like philosophy, advanced science, literature, art, and even politics.

=Miscellaneous=

[[File:Zio.png]] Israel [[File:Hamas.png]]
Frankly, I believe both the Israeli side and Palestine are both equally retarded. I can't justify Israel's existence outside of the effort they already put into building Israel up in the past 80-ish years. Still, other than that, I can't say I support Israel in any meaningful way outside of pure pragmatism, given the way they treat the local Palestinians, making themselves (and us, by extension) look even more terrible on the world stage. Palestinians aren't helping themselves either by electing Hamas terrorists to lead them, antagonizing Israel and its allies even further. Ideally, if possible, I would desire a two-state solution since it would be unfair to boot the Israelis outright since they already sacrificed a lot to build Israel up, but if I had to pick a side, I'm going with the Israelis for purely practical reasons. Israel would make a far worse enemy than most of the Middle East combined for one reason; their military might and the fact that they may be a nuclear power. It's better to remain allies with Israel and perhaps force them to treat the Palestinians better by withholding aid or exerting bureaucratic/diplomatic pressure, but that's all of the good that can come from that entire quagmire. Finally, and I cannot say this enough, there is no reason why we should be sending those people BILLIONS OF DOLLARS PER YEAR in aid, while they can handle themselves just fine and we have domestic problems to take care of.

[[File:Libertarian.png]] Guns, Guns, Guns!
I believe that people should be allowed to own weapons if they wish, and pistol training (after a mental evaluation) should be included in the state school curriculum. However, he does not want a free-for-all open-carry utopia in the states, but he does not want to limit a time-honored American tradition, either; SHOOTING BIG FUCKING GUNS. Therefore, he wants a compromise. Citizens should not be allowed to own any sort of automatic weapon, sniper rifles or guns with specific modifications and/or are over a specific caliber, as well as banning makeshift ammunition and barring specific other kinds of ammunition (like AP rounds) from sale. This would still leave the American population with a wide array of rifles, shotguns and pistols to choose from for hunting or self-defense purposes. However, he also wants to put some of the aforementioned bigger guns in ranges for people to be able to shoot anyways with supervision. He is also fine with most bladed or blunt weapons and non-lethals like pellet/airsoft/BB guns, tasers, and pepper spray. Of course, and this should go without saying, people can't purchase a weapon if they don't have a license/FOID card. There should also be annual health evaluations as a requisite for being allowed to own weapons legally.

[[File:DepressionMale.png]] Euthanasia
I don't see anything wrong with allowing the euthanasia of the terminally ill or extremely old if they desire it. Of course, I don't want to be like Canada and actively present it as a cure-all. Assisted suicide would only be legal with the approval of at least three medical doctors. The decision would ultimately be left up to the individual.

=How To Draw= =Relations=
 * -|Canonical=

[[File:No.png]] Terrible

 * -|Self-Inserts=

[[File:Mega No.png]] Proof That Eugenics Is Needed

 * [[File:O%27Langism.png]] Most Anarchist "Anarchist" ([[File:AnSynd.png]]/[[File:GE.png]]/[[File:Indlibsoc.png]]/[[File:Native.png]]/[[File:Synthesisanarchy.png]]): Essentially my opposite in almost every way. It will probably collapse in a week when it is inevitably land grabbed by their hypothetical neighbors. The economics are terrible and contradictory as hell, even if it uses markets (or at least this...version of them), and is incompatible with the global market mechanism (since it would be nigh-impossible to build a meaningful, strong economy with his restrictive, decentralized, obtrusive and workerphiliac policies). Your civics are highly unstable due to your weird desire for pseudo-anarchy, and your social views will only get in the way of true progress with your apparent idpol fetishism. There is no redeeming anything in this ideology. I drew that conclusion as soon as I saw the biggest economic abomination on the planet; the Gift Economy. The only thing that prevents you from getting 0/100 on the final score is your acceptance of the concept of markets and regulation, to a point. Still, even then, with your system, I have no idea how they'd be implemented on any reasonable scale. (2/100)

=Comments= The only condition to be added to my self-insert is that you need to add mine first (and I will be checking).

O'Langism - Add me? - You know what to do, I asked this 4 times already (including this time)